N'Zaeth Rogue (N'Zoth/Shadowcaster)
- Last updated Jul 19, 2016 (Old Gods)
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Wild
- 21 Minions
- 9 Spells
- Deck Type: Ranked Deck
- Deck Archetype: N'Zoth Rogue
- Crafting Cost: 11380
- Dust Needed: Loading Collection
- Created: 7/19/2016 (Old Gods)
- Zaekk
- Registered User
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- 1
- 12
- 11
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Battle Tag:
Zaekk#1249
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Region:
US
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Total Deck Rating
20
Does your deck look like this?
Why bother with that old thing, when your deck could look like this.
Preamble
I've uploaded this after the first few successful runs of what I believe to be a fairly unique decklist, the only similar afaik being a Kripparian list that's moderately different. Please let me know if I'm unintentionally ripping someone off card for card so I can change one and look unique.
Either way, given that I only have about 20 games of data with it so far I will probably be making little changes and optimisations so don't assume this is finalised. I will upload some gameplay videos after I've gotten to my usual rank 3+ stomping grounds so you can see it in action against an adequate opponent. (I lost about 70% of my match ups until I removed southsea squidfaces for Finley and the sunfury; out of the 20 I've lost 3 games, at rank 17 to 8 all in one long streak)
Any questions, comments or suggestions are more than welcome and should be addressed promptly unless by some freak accident I become popular overnight. (yes, even the trolls--go ahead take a swing I'd appreciate the page traffic)
Playstyle
It's a combo-control deck by nature and has what seems to be the worst removal of any current rogue deck. There's a great reason for this; if you have infinite defenders of Argus against any control deck, other than freeze mage, they are generally incapable of hitting you in the face, whether or not they have the black knight. It is extremely hard for most of these decks to survive a couple of N'zoths let alone the theoretically infinite amount of them. (in a vacuum where turn limits and fatigue damage are abolished) Although the games that have gone to fatigue were still won, there is not a lot of card draw to screw you up if you avoid Xaril and bloodmage.
It is absolutely 100%, non-negotiably required for you to be the most defensive player you can be until you are sure it is either a really slow control deck or you have some serious board tempo. The Finley is a vital part of that--swapping your dagger for literally any other hero power saves massive amounts of face damage late game and most decks are more than capable of some serious burst. Keep in mind that you can duplicate the Finley effect through whatever means you deem necessary in a given match; being able to swap out your hero power multiple times can be very useful and it is technically possible to emulate anything the opponent does if you have given yourself enough board tempo to set up combos to steal their justicar or <insert card here>. Try to avoid late game situations where you have few units on the board, unless you are sure you're playing against a deck that never floods. Even using 1/1s can be quite good if you harvest Xaril toxins to buff up their attack.
Think,
really think,
about why there are only really 3 spells in the deck. All of the synergies are through minion combat, and use; try to avoid situations where you have nothing on board when you end turn.
Once you are on the offensive, try to set up a relentless attack that doesn't allow the opponent to develop any threat on their side of the board, brawl, twisting nether, flamestrike and equality can all be played around by various means but make sure that there is very little or no chance for them to swing back at you. Sometimes this means you have to do sub-optimal trades; waste cards to dump hand for future combos; et cetera.
Since equality is the trickiest, (due to it's mana cost) I'll point it out the strategies that tend to work for me here: hit face a lot so the opponent has to heal with their mana after the board clear; try to keep your cairne until you're able to duplicate it's effects. Feed minions into their weapons if it means you keep ANYTHING on board; save sap until it's a game changer, we're talking ragnaros the lightlord isn't (generally) good enough if you can kill it with minions on the board.
Finally: NEVER EVER CONCEDE; this deck has surprised me on four occasions where I managed to find a win condition. (Unfortunately I did not manage to get a screenshot of the pivotal moment that I used the opponents N'Zoth'd chillmaws to destroy their board, steal their N'zoth and shadowcast it later. IIRC it was about 2 coins, n'zoth, backstab, sap on their ysera and the tomb pillager/cairne I had up that went into it)
Don't sweat the entombs, your misplays, the opponents god draw or your lack of an answer, just think really hard about the options your deck offers--it's not always obvious. Besides it took me like 15 games to even figure out how to play this revision of the deck.
Win Conditions Against Aggro
Priest hero power is a great start--definitely want to snag a single dagger in most cases before you drop the base hero power. Other than that you are pretty much looking to shadowstep, cast or otherwise an argus; eventually with enough taunts they'll go down, especially if you hit it on anything huge. Don't be afraid to "waste" your cards--a large portion of what you have in the deck is either cycle, discovery or persistence on board. If you're playing against zoo: pogchamp their ass, slam your hand on the table and stare them in the eye as they shrivel in fear at your quasi-infinite amount of taunt minions. (yeah right; I win about 1/2 of those matchups on the regs, pray for fan of knives, argus and sunfury, don't fuck it up using them too early or too late) Or you can try to get lucky with the undercity hucksters and get a heal. (not super likely against zoo but it's not the worst against warriors, shamans and paladins)
Win Conditions against Control Decks
There are very few situations you can get yourself into that will make you lose as long as you do one of two things:
- play more than one N'Zoth
- get infinte shadowcasters; see list of combos at the bottom if you're new to this concept
Just keep in mind that if you are playing against another control deck with something to the effect of N'Zoth/C'Thun/a large burst you need to maintain a level of board pressure that demands their attention rather than pittering by with nothing on board then bursting into action; you have no AoE, no heal, and few ways to deal with anything reactively unless you are very lucky with your hucksters.
Mulligans:
General Keeps:
- backstab
- journey below
- Finley
- undercity huckster
- SI:7 Agent (with coin/backstab/journey below if you have turns 1 and 2 sorted out)
- Sunfury (often is better to have something to play early on; don't get fooled into dropping this one against a dragon priest because you thought it was control)
- Bloodmage Thalnos with backstab or fan of knives (alone against control)
- Unearthed Raptor (don't be afraid to waste the battlecry against high pressure situations)
Generally speaking, a varied hand will do better than a static one; if you have three 3 drops on the coin consider vetoing one. Yes, sunfury is generally B team but it's a surprisingly useful card.
Situational Keeps:
- Fan of Knives:
Exceptional against warlock zoo, tempo mage, aggro paladin, most hunter lists and a reasonable amount of shamans. Sometimes works against pirate warrior; often fails against tempo warrior so I'd opt out of that one unless you have to pick from a 9 drop, a 10 drop and fan.
- Brann Bronzebeard
Almost any aggro deck will over commit on this card and it's great as a 4 health taunt! Absolutely terrible against every control deck ever in the early game unless you are somehow able to get by without it dying and get off a shadowcast or three. There are occsasional games where you can set up that combo by shadowstepping the two cards separately on different turns, assuming board presence permits.
- Sap
Druid, due to innervate shenanigans, and sometimes shaman if they're not on the coin and you have some other decent stuff in hand; 4 mana 7/7s can't be replayed the next turn if sapped. by no means is this a necessity, however, it's generally much better late game against anything without a battlecry.
Substitutions:
I get the distinctive feeling this deck isn't for you if you can't handle the 8 legendary entrance fee. However feel free to inquire about a particular card and I will attempt to make a suggestion or choose between your particular preferences. Anub'arak isn't wholly necessary but I like to treat the journey below as an emergency low mana minion fetch card for argus combos or against aggro. Additionally, I don't like to rely on RNG for win conditions.
Gameplay Videos: Coming Soon
Notable combos include:
- shadowcaster on brann, shadowcaster on shadowcaster into an infinite chain of shadowcasted cairnes sylvani anubaraks or defenders of argus (defenders of argi?)
- N'zoth shadowstep
- shadowstep shadowcaster; shadowstep n'zoth; shadowcast n'zoth with a coin from tomb pillager
- shadowcast sylvanas then backstab her if that pesky Tirion Fordring is around (Fireblast from Finley makes this an annoying, AND repeatable option)
- journey below into any card that is placed back into your deck in a fatigue match; proceed with the shadowcasting
- Unearthed Raptor on cairne, sylvanas or surprisingly, undercity huckster include a brann for extra fun
- shadowcaster into shadowcaster into [...]
- Use sylvanas to steal the opponents combos; grommash can be great with xaril toxins and the like
Please update this deck, it's honestly my favorite.
Working on the update right now actually, played at a fireside gathering and met someone that was working on a tempo shadowcaster deck; got some inspiration yo.
Haha, how funny. While reading you're guide I couldn't help but feel like i knew exactly where you're comin from. I'm in a similair spot with my version of N'zoth rogue(dragon N'zoth). Looking at your list, and noting the differences in mine to yours, i have to say i like where yours is going, but i like where mine is at more, if that makes sense. Like i have almost built this list atleast once, and prob about ten similair ones in the process, and it feels like your on to somethin while your making it and playing it, ya know what i mean? Could be great, but for now its still rough draft. I love argus in n'zoth rogue, i didn't get to play with it too much as my version is dragons so i run the guardians instead. I only recently started to toy around with bran and shadowcaster in the list, so its glad to see theres plenty of data available on it so saves me some time there lol. I'd run xaril in mine if i ahd him, but i run two journeys like you do so i can nearly always get him. I actually don't run cairne right now, mostly because i just don't have room for him, as I run chillmaw and ysera(not sure what to better replace her with honestly, deathwing doesnt feel much better and neither does alex. ) I feel like Anub is a similair card for you, hes a deathrattle so why not, but hes a winmore card, and also easily gained from JB. I don't have two shadowcasters so ive been runnin with 1 shadowcaster and 1 faceless manip and brann, its a bit more complicated for the combo but it does work lol. I'm so glad i'm not the only one who noticed dagger up is no only nearly pointless in N'zoth rogue, but its actually a liability and often the reason i lose. Also was very PogChamp to see you even listed Priest HP as one of the ideal picks from finly, cause thats the entire reason i even added him. Thats the one thing i can't seem to fix, that this deck is in desperate need of more heals. I run 1 or 2 earthen ring in mine, and then finley, and with brann it goes a bit further, doesn't feel good but feels good enough. So thisis getting to long so i'll just do this -
tl;dr -
I like your deck, i made a similair one, but its dragon style.
I agree with or atleast accept most of the choices you have in this list, but some changes I'd personally atleast consider are -
I'd swap, remove, or add -
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Anub - feels like a winmore card, plus often can be gained from JB
the sunfury protector cause.... like i see what you are trying to do, but no.. I just don't think it's necessary at all in this deck infact I'd even consider dropping one of the argus too, cause you technically don't need two do you? But two is okay i suppose, especially since these decks lack draw.
I don't think you need double fan of knives either, one is okay i suppose since you have bloodmage atleast, but i'd drop the other one and swap in a skulker if you want a second clear cause atleast skulker can be shadowcastered as well.
Have you thought about adding twilight summoner or infested tauren? infested because you obviously want the taunt since you run sunfury and argus lol. But its a bit better than argus in that infested will come back as a taunt with nzoth. Super helpful sometimes. And summoner because, i mean, if you run bran and raptor, why not get some insane value once in awhile if nothing else.
In my list atleast, i run Rag, and I would't get rid of him for anything. He is soo good in this type of deck, not only for shadowcaster value, but just on his own he's a great card for stalling until nzoth, or just to get some damage done and threaten a bit. I think this deck could use somethin like that. Something outside of nzoth to help win
Oh, and since this deck has a problem im familiar with, in that you have 3s for days and even more 3s as 'tech options' id be willing to wager lol atleast if you're anything like me. A nice little workaround of having to pick between some of them is run a damn scarab. With bran it can be amazing, and allows you to risk running one or even none of certain important 3 drops i know its not like, the best thing to go with, but like i've had to do it before to make room for important cards on similair lists, and besides being super fun, it's suprisingly strong most of the time, but like any card like this, there are those times when its total garbge.
Anyway, sorry for the longass comment, i just have a passion for thisd decktype for rigt now and was excited to see someone thinking along the same lines as i was.
No worries about the long comment the constructive criticism is much appreciated.
More or less I don't think at the time of minting that deck I could actually pull off a respectable revision of it, things like working in heals, avoiding 'the 3 drop trap' and my obsession with defeating control warriors with anub'arak are all fair points. Although I've been working on other decks since then and haven't really had the interest to pursue the matter until the rest of Kharazan is released.
Heals, draw and more importantly a lower curve are all things that reaaaally should be at the forefront of the design in addition to emperor thaurussan. Either way, I'll adjust the list when the rest of Kharazhan is out.
Cheers,
Zaekk
New account, but a 4th season hearthstone player. I took some time to run a bit more budget version of this deck (no anub'arak, xaril, and regrettably, no thalnos). To compensate I ran a lot more removal options (eviscerate, etc.). In a 10 game run I managed game changing combos twice (involving N'zoth shadowstep shenanigans, and another against a zoo with shadowcaster, argus and azure drake for draw. He conceded after the 3rd argus). 2 games against tempo Mage were lost to spell damage after I realized I had to push aggro, and a few more to aggro decks.
Not a great sample size and not the same deck, I know, but there are a few issues is like some help with. For a combo deck, the card draw is abysmal (hence the azure drakes). The minion presence is very scarce until t4, and the combos available more along t6, which is when aggro decks typically kill you. I also have difficulty against Cthun decks. If they pop Cthun there are very few things to do, among the best options is simply to taunt up or kill sylvanas (but like I said, card draw makes this difficult). In short, decks that rely on spell finishers and Cthun are very difficult to manage.
I love the minion synergy, which I why I tried out a variant of the deck, but it seems like surviving until t10 or managing the necessary hand for combos is unreliable at best.
what are your thoughts on these problems? Also, do you think a Reno version of this deck is possible?
EDIT: made a Reno deck based off this list (runs x2 shadowcaster). Added a bunch of draw cards via loot hoarder and thistle. Reno t6 then brann shadowcaster into Reno. Tons of fun. I also discovered an anub'arak one game against Cthun warrior. Had a whole lot of fun shadowcasting that to my hand for death rattle into a 4/4 and a 8/4 with n'zoth. I'll post list after more testing
Wow honestly kind of blown away at your interest level there but to address your concerns in order:
Yeah that's basically the core issue with the deck as far as I've played it--I just tend to focus more on using the unearthed raptors to copy the 'draw' effects on the hucksters, which occasionally gets me through the aggro match-ups but to be brutally honest I was playing this list in late evening (7 to 9pm EST) so it was practically getting 80% control match-ups, often warriors. By time the early morning rolled around I had given up on testing it out to climb ladder with zoo xD. As far as that other bit is concerned, yeah if I'm against a
As far as that other bit is concerned, yeah if I'm against a c'thun deck I try to put up enough board pressure that they'll be close to dying if they play it and/or hold onto specifically backstab+shadowcasted sylvannas; perhaps it was a large amount of luck on my part.
There are definitively issues with card draw but I managed to get through some of it by using finley multiple times to swap out hero power for warlock then subsequently warrior/priest in a few games as well.
The reno version is almost undoubtedly a better idea and feel free to post the decklist and perhaps we can do some collaborative work; I'd be happy to share my current statistics of w/l and match-up w/you. I'll try to whip something up as well and see about getting some more numbers.
Cheers,
Zaekk